Have you read the Old Testament before? You should. It’s weird. It’s disturbing. It’s confusing. It’s generally a good read.
I’ve got to be honest, though, as a minister, a college graduate, and avid reader, I’ve got little understanding as to how to contextualize the Old Testament.
One thing is for certain, it makes me angry when people over simplify it. When they take horrific stories of the commanded death of women and children, stoning of people for seemingly insignificant things, and lack of justice concerning the plight of certain people groups and try to justify it with a Sunday school answer it makes me frustrated. That answer works at church, but if you claimed that God commanded you to kill all the men, women, children, and animals of Kazakhstan I don’t think I’d be speaking of God’s grace or mercy (no matter how true it is). It’s not that simple.
I’m grappling with my understanding and explanation (for lack of a better term). Have you thought through this? Have you grappled with this? Have you questioned Christians concerning this?
I won’t give my thought out response here because I’m not sure I can. I will say, however, that I love Jesus. And I believe that in Jesus we see the most clear and understandable picture of God’s identity. This brings me great peace…and a little more convolution.
Musings From The Ground Up
Initiating a new grassroots movement in downtown Vancouver
Contextualize is a great way to put it. I've continued to wrestle from our conversation the other night, without much progress I'm afraid. I did have a bit of relief on Monday though. I was reading about "refuge," and how God is our strong tower, our shield, our shelter and shade from the craziness. Sometimes I think God can be our shelter from ourselves as well. So I've taken a small break from wrestling with this to sit in the refuge that is God. But I'm curious to read how others have reconciled the seemingly different images of God from the OT to the NT. My wife brought up a good thought though – we are not done yet seeing the wrath of God. At the second coming we may see God's wrath in such a way that makes the OT stories seem like kid's books. So maybe God is in a great period of patience, but His wrath is looming large. I dunno.
Honestly, I have come to realize that there are just some things that we aren't capable of understanding when it comes to God's word, His will and this world. Wether He limits that capability to 'protect' us or as a tool to strengthen our trust in Him I don't know. There could be a million reasons. I would actually go so far as to say that it is pretty disrespectful, insulting…searching for the correct word…of us to think that we are capable of understanding such a big God.
There are things, especially in the OT, that I can't reconcile myself with. I see a God who doesn't appear to be all the things that I love about Him. I, however, can't grasp, with my little human mind, why God moved in the way He did.
Sometimes, there just aren't answers. I wish there were. I don't like not knowing but, it is what it is.
I don't think we really understand the mystery of Yahweh's justice. Keep in mind that no human (but Jesus), has ever stood just in God's eyes, in the OT Jesus' sacrifice wasn't speaking for those who had sinned. What is justice in God's eyes we may consider to be injustice. The wrath of God may be seen today, we just logically explain it away.
I don't think that the God of the OT and the God of the NT are different, I think that God has always desired for us (humans) to be involved in what he is doing (see Abraham and his involvement in Sodom and Gomorrah's destruction). In the NT that involvement changed due to the nature of a more explicitly active Spirit and the reconciling power of Jesus' sacrifice on behalf of our sin.
Also, the "Let's kill all the [fill in the blank]'s for the glory of GOD" mentality will land you in Guantanamo Bay here in the US, but is still a strong theme in other places in the world. Let's remember that early Christians in the NT faced great persecution from Rome and the Jews, but for some reason the NT scriptures are less narrative than the OT so we have not heard those stories as much.
1 last thought: Jesus came to be a spiritual savior and not an earthly king, God's kingdom seems to have taken a more grass roots approach after Jesus' birth, death, and resurrection. A significant transition between the time of the fall of Jerusalem to now has occurred regarding how to spread the news. No longer are we a chosen nation with physical boundaries and so physical wars are more complicated because I live among those who were seen as enemies in the OT. Jesus brought us a new law, things were bound to be different.
I'm not sure you want to hear from an old lady that doesn't have a Bible degree… But… here goes. Is is too simple to believe God truly is a good Father who protects and disciplines His own creation and children? It seems logical, rational and spiritually sound to assume He did this for the Israelites, His specially chosen child. Their purpose was to bring His Son to fruition. That had to happen, because of human choices. Earthly fathers do the same thing on a much smaller scale. They protect, defend and discipline their children to maturity. Christ was/is the culmination of the maturity of the nation of Israel. And, because He was the Son of the One Most High, He was able to take on the sins of the rest of us. In the OT God demolished nations that were road blocks for His People. He still does. He has a hand in bringing down governments, groups, and individuals that reach His limits of sin. However, His People now have a Brother, and Example, a Saviour to follow. Not a futuristic hope like the Israelites had, but a Real, Warm, Solid, Feeling, Loving, Human and Divine Hand to guide the Way. He also sent The Spirit to empower us to make godly choices. The choices that make following the Son easy and joyful.
God, like earthly fathers, does not enjoy unleashing His Wrath, but, like earthly fathers, will and has when given no other choice by His creation, His children, His church.
I love all the responses so far. And if I was to write a response it would probably mirror much of what y'all have said (or at least some of it. most of your wisdom far exceeds my own!) Let me share a little bit about my thought process here though. I've always viewed the Bible as a little preachers kid that grew up in the church. So those answers were very easy to spout off without even a hint of reservation about the imprecations or immense amount of faith it actually required. But as God has been shaping me these last few years I've begun to try to view faith, Scripture, and God from the perspective of one who doesn't believe and doesn't know the stories (as much as it is possible to see anything outside of your own experiences). So because of this many of the right answers don't sit as well with me. As true as it is that we have absolutely no right to judge God's actions (including his wrath, discipline, and mercy) don't we rightfully vilify the actions of such people as the Westboro Baptist church that claims that homosexuals get what they deserve with regard to AID's or that Katrina was God's judgment on evil New Orleans, or when they hold signs that says "pray for more dead soldiers" because it's God's judgment against a nation that no longer holds his values? And yet from a cursory read of the Old Testament much of that would seem somewhat accurate! So it's not that I'm questioning God or the Scriptures as much as I'm wanting to know if our interpretation holds water for a group of people that doesn't yet believe. Maybe it does. Maybe it doesn't need to. Either way I appreciate y'alls piece in the conversation! Any more thoughts?
I think our stance doesn't hold water for people who don't believe because we are unwilling to question God. I think of Jacob wrestling with God, if he didn't fight back the story would read much differently. I think part of God's desire for our relationship is to wrestle with him.
This is a hard question to ask, if we ask why it is okay Westboro Baptist to act way, we must be willing to ask why it was ok for God to wipe out nations like he did/does. I don't think this in any way threatens God, it creates greater intimacy in my relationship with the Father when I am willing to speak without fear. After all if I think it God know's it, what's the difference in asking?
I think you're right on Adam. There's a lot of power in saying "I don't know" when it comes to faith and spirituality.
Generally, non-believers(was one) find Christians unbelievable when we Christians put aside what we believe. We are all constantly questioning, but even when we find the answer to a question, we tend to want to keep trying to reinvent the wheel.
As for Christians that do bad things… There will always be wolves that appear in sheeps' clothing. Do not let them distract you from what is right and true and pure. (happens all the time tho, and God forgives anyway, when we are repentant)
One cannot come to know Christ without being taught. "I don't know" IS most powerful. This promotes study. One does not need to know all the answers to every question to believe God holds the answers. A non-believer doesn't need to know YOU have all the answers, just that you whole-heartedly know unwaiveringly who does.
Keeping it simple is the best way to be a factor in the product of soul-winning. Planting seeds. Basics. Tell the Truth. Be what you are (preacher's kid and all). Each person comes with a different presupposition. Listen. Learn. Share. Bond. When the soil is ready, the seed will grow. You cannot know what is inside the head of a non-believer any more than they can understand your life as a preacher's kid. Love anyway.
Such interesting converesation. I like what's said about "I don't know." I agree, I think there's a lot of power in this answer. For us as people of faith to still be 'searching' and growing shows much. Folks these days are very turned off by "know it alls" no matter what they believe. Most would agree that life is a journey, and we're all "seekers."
Just out of curiosity, what do we all believe here in regards to the fate of all those God wiped out? I like what was said about God protecting His child, His chosen nation to see that Christ would come. But I also know that through Abraham, thus through Christ, all nations would be blessed. What about the one that were demolished? And I'm curious to know how God is still working in this way. I think something was said about God still doing away with people who are far from Him.
Lastly, I've found that much of the time in our culture that people need to be 'untaught' as much as they need to be taught to come to Christ. We live in a culture that has lots of hangups with God, Christ, and especially the church. More often than not you don't meet people who have never heard of Jesus. You run into people who have all kinds of ideas about Him, and again, especially about Christians. And most of these are negative. What I find is a struggle is talking with those who know a lot about the Bible, and who can recognize the seeming inconsistancies. These people, unfortunately, are not usually looking for the gentle and simple answers. Of course, the best witness of Christ is a life that's molded after His own, lived in humility and repentance. But, how do we answer people's tough questions? The tough ones that keep them turned off to God? Or is that our job at all?
ooh, really good thoughts and questions! I pray that I am in a position that people feel like they can ASK me the tough question. If I can get to that place with someone then I am not worried about having the answer, cause the spirit is clearly working!
It's really hard not to want to be the answer guy. Everyone wants to have the right answer! how cool would it be if our goal was to be the question guy…wait a second, isn't that what Jesus did? Wasn't he always responding to peoples questions with more questions? hmm…maybe I'm on to something!
Tell me… What would you consider a hard question?